Fitz: Premier,thank you for your time. I happen to know that late on the evening of your election victory,you had just got home in triumph when your wife,Anna,sent you out to get pizza for the well-wishers on their way over. You must have had a view at that point what the next year as premier would look like. A year on,has it panned out as you thought?
Premier Chris Minns with wife Anna and their sons,the day after he was elected a year ago.Edwina Pickles
CM: Yeah,I knew it would be busy and that we’d have a lot to do,but it’s been a lot like repairing an aeroplane mid-flight. So in addition to everything that you have to do to run things,you’ve also got to reform the place – which has been challenging. But I still,genuinely – honest to God – get into bed each night,pinch myself and say to Anna,“You know,I still can’t believe I’ve got this job!”
Fitz: You met Anna in Young Labor. Is she the person who has the single greatest influence on which way you steer the ship of state?
CM: Yes. We’ve been together so long,and we’ve kind of grown up together. I’ve got more of a sense of “us” than just “me”.
The premier with son George Minns at Taronga Zoo.Dion Georgopoulos
Fitz: I know you to be a devoted family man with three young sons. Would I be right in saying that nine out of every 10 units of energy you have to give to life right now goes to being premier,and there’s only one unit left over for the family unit?
CM: Yeah,that’s true. But I do put time aside for kids’ sport. And we’re a really close family. I think the measure of success with your family is,when you walk through the front door,are you happy to see everybody? And that is absolutely still the case. I love getting home and seeing everybody. Yesterday,Anna was in Canberra for work,so I was in charge at home and seven-year-old George came to the breakfast table wearing his school uniform that he wore to bed the night before. And I said,“You definitely wore that to bed. Iknowthat you didn’t even put your pyjamas on!” And he said,“I’m sticking to my story.”
Fitz: A born politician! Do you make parent-teacher nights and have you done canteen duty since you’ve been premier?
CM: No and no.
Fitz: Have you changed as a person and a politician since the election?
CM: We live a very suburban life,in the middle of Kogarah. We hang out at local restaurants,we go to local sport and I still see everybody in my local community. Sydney is a pretty unaffected town and it’s not really a political town,so you’re just someone like everybody else. So no,I don’t think I’ve changed as much as perhaps people might think.
Looking back … Chris Minns has been NSW premier for a year.James Brickwood
Fitz: Has the transition from opposition leader –opposing – to the premier –proposing,while bearing all the responsibility – been harder than you expected?
CM: It’s hard in some ways,but nothing is as hard as being opposition leader. I really wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. You do seven days a week and,at the end,it might all amount to absolutely nothing. It’s really a bit of a soul-destroying job. So being premier is great.
Fitz: Gough Whitlam once said to me that the best politician of his generation – himself,of course,excepted – was Kim Beazley snr. But he said that Kim snr was held back by the fact he just didn’t like excoriating the Liberals and Country Party in parliament. He was too nice. And it’s been whispered to me that you actually like Liberal leader Mark Speakman. And it’s on the public record that one of your best friends is an upper house Nat,.
CM:[Warmly.] Ido like Mark Speakman. I think he’s an honorable person. So what’s the point in saying otherwise?
Fitz: That must make it hard in the bear pit of parliament to rip in and say,“The Honorable Member,for wherever Mark Speakman is from,wouldn’t know what he’s talking about and he should heretofore get nicked!”
CM: No. Because I’ve got a job to do:to defend the government in that kind of adversarial environment. So I’ve got absolutely no problem sticking up for the government’s policies or personnel or its plans for the future.
Fitz: Our recentshowed 49 per cent of the population are unsure who they want to lead the state. Meanwhile,Labor’s primary vote in NSW slipped down three points to 34 per cent,while the Coalition’s primary climbed to 38 per cent,up six points. Those are not great numbers.
CM: I take that on board. It’s a good reminder for everybody inside the Labor Party that we can take absolutely nothing for granted. And that being in office is a privilege,not a right,and we have to fight and earn people’s respect and eventual support.
Fitz: What’s been the hardest thing you’ve had to do as premier?
CM: It surprised me how often you are around people who have lost family members,and the grieving part of the job is a big,big part of it – going to funerals,talking to people who have lost husbands or kids or wives. It’s awful for the families and friends,and so heart-wrenching. And,naively,I didn’t anticipate for a moment that that would be part of the job. But it’s a massive part of being premier and an important one.
Fitz: What’s your proudest achievement in this first year?
CM: Putting housing on the agenda,particularly trying to solve the housing problems for young people.
Fitz: On that subject,Paul Keating once said,“If you’re not living in Sydney,you’re really just camping out”,and lately it feels like there are a million more people who want to live here thancan live here. Is the housing crisis soluble through higher-density housing around train stations,without destroying the atmosphere and heritage of those areas?
CM: It is. Sydney is the 830th densest city in the world,and global cities that all of us love are far denser while maintaining their character,amenity,heritage and history. And at the same time,we actually have to have a place for young people to live in. The Productivity Commission says that we’re losing twice as many young people as we’re gaining. We are literally losing our future city through not having housing for young people.
Fitz: Going into the last election,I admired premier Dom Perrottet for really pushing hard for the cashless card for the pokies,really wanting to do something dramatic to limit problem gambling,whereas you wanted to go a lot slower and start with a trial on 500 pokies. My sense is that little has happened on gambling reform,pokie reform,since you’ve been elected?
CM: Well,we do have this gambling reform committee that’s set up,with gambling harm-minimisation members. They’ve all signed non-disclosure agreements so they can have deliberations behind the scenes and that’s probably the main reason why it hasn’t been front and centre in the public debate. But that doesn’t mean they’re not doing anything,and we’re hopeful of major reform. In addition to that,we’ve reduced the amount of poker machines in NSW by 3000 as a result of changes to the legislation. So I know that people are cynical about the government’s intentions as a result of the last election campaign,but I would just urge people to hold fire and wait and see what this committee can actually come up with. It hasn’t been stacked with a whole bunch of poker machine barons or industry participants. It’s got everybody on it,and you might be surprised with what they come up with.
Fitz: So wecan’t sneer unpleasantly in your general direction saying you’ve been captured by Clubs NSW and the Australian Hotel Association?
CM: Well,I’m sure some people will say that no matter what,but no,we’re serious. The legislation has gone through,and we’ve done more than perhaps people realise.
Fitz: One of your predecessors said to me once that,on a bad day,he felt more like the mayor of NSW than premier because so many of the things he was dealing with were quotidian chores of mostly metropolitan management rather than the big things he really wanted to do. Do you ever have those same feelings?
Homelessness troubles the premier more than any need for stadiums.Flavio Brancaleone
CM: No. I love it. It’s the peculiar thing about our Federation that you can have a job in state government and have massive influence on so many areas of ... life. You still get a bit of a psychological bump when you get in the car in the morning and turn on the radio and what they’re talking about is what you’re doing that day. Not many jobs are like that. So,I still get a massive buzz out of it.
Fitz: There was a brilliant piece written in theHerald last year – and as a matter of fact,I wrote it – noting that if you could put an infrared camera on top of Centrepoint Tower,looking out across the state for areas of terrible need for the state’s finances to flow to,it was very unlikely that it would spot a whole bunch of stadiums glowing red,where we absolutelyneed to put $600 million into Penrith Stadium and hundreds of millions into other boutique NRL stadia and so forth. Do you agree with that analysis,or do you think the infrared camera would pick up the terrible need for more stadia?
CM: No,I think the infrared camera would pick up that homelessness is increasingly a major issue in Sydney in particular,but also all over the state. So I would agree with you that in terms of the order of needs,there are other things that are far more important.
Fitz: We chat in a week when a Queensland premier,Steven Miles,has announced a cut-rate 2032 Olympic Games and there have been reports that they’ve looked at pulling out of the Olympics altogether. If the latter did happen,and they pulled out,your Treasurer Daniel Mookhey has hinted that as NSW already has the Olympic infrastructure built,we’d be glad to have them here. Do you agree?
CM: No. We’ve got major obligations in health and education and public transport,and we’ve got $180 billion worth of debt. So I just can’t with a straight face say to you or your readers on a Sunday morning,“By the way,in addition to all that,we’ll be a failsafe for the Olympic Games.”
Fitz: Queensland will do pill-testing at a festival over Easter. Why are you opposed to pill-testing? And will we have a drug summit in NSW this year,where your government might pursue sane drug laws,acknowledging that criminalising drugs doesn’t work,never has worked,never will work?
CM: We are going to have a drug summit this year. We’re going to get experts in the field to present to the government. I hope to make it bipartisan and I’m not ruling anything in or out. I want to make sure that we’re making an evidence-based look at potential reforms.
Fitz: But,personally – calling on your frankness and willingness to be upfront – do you accept the obvious,that criminalising dope,for a start,is ludicrous and doesn’t work? Can you give me that?
CM: Well,if you just saw what happened in Oregon in the last week,they reversed most of their criminal justice liberalisation measures of the year prior. So it’s not straightforward. But I’m not closing the door on reform and I want to make sure we’ve got an evidence-based approach to it.
Fitz: Why are you opposed to pill-testing?
CM: Again,that’s going to be part of the drug summit. And I don’t want this to be a preamble for an eventual rejection of any kind of reform,but one of the things that you have to appreciate when it comes to pill-testing is that most deaths at festivals,according to the coroner,have not come about because of toxicity of the substance. It’s been the potency of the substance. And potency isn’t tested at mobile pill-testing labs.
Fitz: There’s a view that you’re at odds with members of your cabinet over your position on drug reform and pill-testing. And you’ve acknowledged publicly there is division in caucus over the new bail laws which seem to make it easier to incarcerate teens. What’s your response to the idea that the position you’ve taken on these issues is more aligned with the Liberals than Labor?
CM: I don’t accept that. It’s important to note that,yes,we’ve changed the bail laws,particularly as it relates to the theft of a motor vehicle,and breaking and entering a home. And the reason for that is because we’re seeing over and over again ... particularly young people ... taking a decision to steal a car. I am genuinely worried. I’m maybe ridiculed for this,but I’m genuinely worried that a car full of kids is going to wrap themselves around a tree;they’re going to kill themselves or their family members or a member of the public and people will ask why didn’t we do something about it? We’re not just introducing by-laws,and saying that’s it. We’re also in the process of setting up a residential facility in Moree as the first pilot site,where a magistrate can make a decision to put them in the residence and there’s a halfway point between having bail and being on remand. So they’re not going straight back into the community,but we’re not just sending them to juvenile justice,and we can put in a whole bunch of wraparound services. Last year we spent $375 million in diversionary measures in the state and the crime rate – particularly in regional communities,and particularly for young people – is going up,not down,so I’m worried about the people this is affecting. No one wants to go into public life,least of all me,to lock people up,particularly children. But equally,I don’t want to see kids kill themselves or go through this repeat cycle of offence/arrest/bail over and over again. I don’t think it’s in their interest either.
Fitz: In federal politics,the first of the two issues at the moment is the advisability of building nuclear power stations. Peter Dutton will reportedly shortly announce six sites around the country where he wants to build nuclear reactors. Let’s say he wins the next federal election and announces two sites in NSW. How does the law work? Is it a federal call alone? If not,and we’ve got,say,two nuclear reactors due to be built in NSW,would you try and block it?
CM: That’s averygood question. I would tell you that we’re against it. I just think it’s a fool’s errand at this point to think that you can set up a civil nuclear-energy facility in Australia – the cost and the time is huge. And we need to exploit renewable energy to drive energy production into the future. I’ll be honest with you:I haven’t really thought about legal options,if the Liberals win,and announce they are building nuclear reactors in NSW.
Fitz: All right. Let’s just say you have the legal levers to stop the reactors. Would you pull them?
CM:[Thoughtfully.] Yeah ... I wouldn’t rule it out. I don’t think it’s in the state’s interest.
Fitz: The other issue is distribution of GST in favour of WA. In a nutshell,is it that those mongrel Sandgropers cut a great deal with Scott Morrison to get more than their fair share,and is it written in concrete that it can’t change? I know you have taken it up with the PM. How many times did you use the words “unfair”,“appalling” and “Albo,you bastard!”? And what did he say?
CM: Well,no,I didn’t say that to the prime minister,who is the boss. But it is unfair. It is unsustainable in the long run. I mean,if you look beyond the next few years,the amount of money that the Commonwealth government will have to send to Western Australia ... is so huge that there needs to be a new understanding,a new agreement. We just can’t deliver the kind of services that a state like NSW needs with a declining share of Commonwealth revenue. Our taxpayers send billions and billions of dollars to the Commonwealth government,and I think we recognise that we’ve got a role in helping out the Northern Territory,South Australia and Tasmania. But when you’re sending billions to Victoria and Western Australia? I mean,Peter,Western Australia is on track to being one of the wealthiest governments in the world,almost like a petro-state in the Middle East! It’s not right for NSW to be sending them money.
Fitz: OK,we have everything but the headline. What’s your big idea for the year ahead? What are you going to tackle in your second year in office?
CM: More housing. We have to break the back of housing in NSW. Everything is dependent on that. If you don’t have housing,you don’t have young people. And if we don’t have young people,we don’t have a future.
Fitz: Thank you for your time. It’s been great to have Five Mins with Minns.